FireLink

It depend on the type of building and size. If you have a trailer fire then attack lines. A 2 story house then may be your best bet. Not all fire are the same.

If you have a fully involved fire; the amount of personnel and experiance would depend on your line choice, the same staffing along with you having a dependable water supply would calculate into how many lines and if you could even put a master stream into play. All of this aside you, with any fully involved structure you need to put focus on your exposures.

I have to agree with everyone else, just depends on what type/size of structure you have. Do you have a hydrant nearby or do you have a Tender on the way? Water plays a huge role in this question. So I don't think there is a clear answer other than, you have to make that determination upon a good scene size up.

Alright, I'll be the stick in the mud.

A master stream device (at least here) is used primarily as a tool for defensive operations. Fighting fire with attack lines would be an offensive approach. Consider the way that the water would enter the structure from a master stream. Potentially, the fire would spread during the use of the master stream. And, if it were an elevated stream, ventilation would probably need to have already happened. That would make damage to the structure heavier. Also, property damage would potentially be higher with a master stream. Then, look at the amount of water flowing through the device. Do you have enough of a water supply to support the master stream? Is the structure occupied? If it is, then the master stream attack would not be a wise choice. Where is all that water going after it gets inside the structure? Can the structure withstand that much weight? If we initiate a defensive operation, why switch to an offensive operation?

I guess by now, you can see that I'm not a huge fan of the master stream. Master stream devices are effective when applied properly. However, they can be even more dangerous if misused.....knowingly or not. In my response area, about 70% does not have a positive pressure water source. We depend on water shuttle. I would use attack lines and would use the master stream only if we needed to switch to a defensive operation.

A 2.5" hand line will give you a LOT of GPM. Two of those, when used properly, can knock down an amazing amount of fire. With 10 people at the scene, you have enough for 2 - 3 person attack lines, 1 - 3 person RIT, and an A.O. You need some help, but with that, you have a good start.

Do you have a pre-fire plan in place? If so, you have an idea of the fire load and construction type. Also, with a pre-fire plan a GPM estimate for the fully involved structure should have already been figured. Sometimes, a pre-fire plan makes your offensive/defensive choice for you.

tsmith1 says ...

Alright, I'll be the stick in the mud.

 

A master stream device (at least here) is used primarily as a tool for defensive operations. Fighting fire with attack lines would be an offensive approach. Consider the way that the water would enter the structure from a master stream. Potentially, the fire would spread during the use of the master stream. And, if it were an elevated stream, ventilation would probably need to have already happened. That would make damage to the structure heavier. Also, property damage would potentially be higher with a master stream. Then, look at the amount of water flowing through the device. Do you have enough of a water supply to support the master stream? Is the structure occupied? If it is, then the master stream attack would not be a wise choice. Where is all that water going after it gets inside the structure? Can the structure withstand that much weight? If we initiate a defensive operation, why switch to an offensive operation?

 

I guess by now, you can see that I'm not a huge fan of the master stream. Master stream devices are effective when applied properly. However, they can be even more dangerous if misused.....knowingly or not. In my response area, about 70% does not have a positive pressure water source. We depend on water shuttle. I would use attack lines and would use the master stream only if we needed to switch to a defensive operation.

 

A 2.5" hand line will give you a LOT of GPM. Two of those, when used properly, can knock down an amazing amount of fire. With 10 people at the scene, you have enough for 2 - 3 person attack lines, 1 - 3 person RIT, and an A.O. You need some help, but with that, you have a good start.

 

Do you have a pre-fire plan in place? If so, you have an idea of the fire load and construction type. Also, with a pre-fire plan a GPM estimate for the fully involved structure should have already been figured. Sometimes, a pre-fire plan makes your offensive/defensive choice for you.

I would have to say Ditto to TS's post I would rather use the resources to put bug water (2.5" line) right where I need it than rain it all over everything.

ACB

Three things no one thought about is the type of area you are in. is water easily accesible? and is the structure positively occupied. in my area if it was ocupied, and we have no hydrants! the first arriving engine would confirm ocupation of the residence or what ever type of structure it is, and attempt an attack with a three man offensive attack with 1 3/4, rapid search and evaluate. if the fire is two intense than we would back out and change to a defensive attack. while all this is going on we would be establishing wattersupply by tanker shuttle. once a watter supply is established if the fire is able to be reached while attack team 1 is fighting with 1 3/4 attack team 2 is ready to go with a 2 inch if needed to continue offensive attack, if we did not change over to defensive attack. so i guess there are to many veriables to come to a conclusive decistion.

Ltpitcher says ...

I agree Rbailey but if the structure is fully involve where i am from that means there is fire throughout the building and yes water supply is a issue and if there is no hydrant near then you wouldnt have enough water  until you set up a shuttle opp. however i dont think a 1 3/4 line is going to do any good on a structure that is full involved BIG FIRE means BIG WATER and that is were preplanning comes into play if you have water issues in your district than a response plan should be built into your dispatch so that you are getting water tenders and such quickly.

you ar 100% correct and there are preplans in affect. plus our disbatch has what we call run cards. a call genirated at a spicific address were the closest hydrant may be 3-5 miles away calles for two extra tankers. all structure fires we are dibatched to, sends two engines, two tankers, an engine from mutual aid and a tanker from mutual aid, 1 squad (initial disbatch). we do have hydrants but they do not flow enough watter to support a direct connection to an engine and they are few and far between. the first team in is primarily to do a rapid search and ditermine if they can acualy perform an offencive attack. this is only done in a fully involved fire if we have confirmed that the structure is occupied. (trying to get in quick and find victims quick) if the structure is not occupied we will not even attempt an intirior attack on a fully involved strucure, we have ditermined that it is to risky with the response times for mutual aid and risk vs. outcome. i do not think i explained it clearly before. the defensive attack would be comprised of master streams using the surround and drowned idea. i agree with TSMITH and you on this topic.

Well this got some input so now let me add something;

This call was in a trailer park I laid 500 ft of 5" in from a hydrant one trailer was gone .We had 2 trailer exsposeures that were about to lite up 2 cars burning and a tree.We called for mutaul aide we went with 2 -1 1/2 preconnects on the exsposures after awhile we added the deck gun.

Here's how I would divide it up.  IC can be the engine operator for the time being. He can see whats going on and is in a central location.  2 FFs on and attack line,  2 FFs on a back up line, 3 to ventilate and then that leaves 2 guys for RIT. And then if the fire is really big call for mutual aid. And then you ask how the IC can do a walk around, I have that covered take your RIT and keep them near the engine while IC takes the two minutes or so to make the perimeter.  It was stated earlier and I'm going to say it again. If you are using master streams I hope you don't plan on going in at all and maintain huge space between you, apparatus, and the structure because all that water is going to make that structure incredibly unstable.  And start praying there's no one in there that would have/ could have made it only to be drowned.

master streams have thier purpose.  just have to be sure they are needed  on a trailer fire I would be hard pressed to use a deck gun unless everyone was on the same page. that much water and weight flying through the air can hurt someone or break alot of stuff in or around the structure

Engineer 1, it would also depend on what your definition of "fully involved" is...As a 911 dispatcher, when a cheif in the county tells me fully involved it is ussually followed by a defensive attack statement, in that case Master streams...the damage is already done..